nitpicky grammar thing.

[zwol]

In my dialect of English, the word shall can only be used in the imperative and in fixed idioms.

1. Implementations shall not truncate lines.
2. You shall report to Main Barracks at 0800 tomorrow.
3. A person who shall remain nameless.

Those are fine, but this is not:

4. *Normally, the program shall install itself in /usr/local/bin.

Star. Boldface, blinking, day-glo, 72-point star. If you are predicting future events based on present actions or conditions, and no volitional actor is involved, the grammar in my head absolutely requires will, no exceptions, no mercy. Volitional actors are only okay to the extent that the sentence can be construed as imperative:

5. All enlisted men shall obey the chain of command, but must refuse unlawful orders and may object to unwise ones. (military regulations)
6. ?Normally, the teenagers shall go for walks as they see fit. (Instructions to house-sitter?)

Of course I wouldn't be grumping about this on LiveJournal if it were a hypothetical. There is a person who consistently uses shall where I would write will in situations like (4) above. In documentation, which I have to read. Because he does this so consistently, I have to consider the possibility of his dialect sanctioning shall for that sort of prediction. Various online sources address the general shall-vs-will question but do not speak to this particular point, that I can find.

Thus, the question, O my readers: Can you name a dialect that allows or requires shall in (4), and if you were editing formal written English, would you substitute will?

Comments

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

My home dialect does use "I should do that" for "I will do that" in somewhat formal contexts, but I'd not use it in any person other than the first.

[zwol.livejournal.com]

Should is an entirely different ball of wax... did you mean "I shall do that"? I can say that too, but it's overt-to-the-point-of-irony formality for me.

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I would occasionally say "I shall do that tomorrow" in something like a planning meeting, but I would not write it down, whereas "should" for a firm future plan, as opposed to indicating that a course of action is preferable, is a written thing. I had not thought about that distinction before.

[zwol.livejournal.com]

Huh. For me, "I should do that tomorrow" is normal spoken usage expressing that it would be a Good Thing if whateveritis got done, and that I intend to make an attempt tomorrow, but not promising success or even promising getting around to it at all.

[brooksmoses]

Hmm, yeah. It also wouldn't strike me as wrong to use "I shall do that" either, though it feels like an exceptionally formal construct that I wouldn't be likely to use, and which rarely has the right tone.

[brooksmoses]

I would only write a sentence like 4 if I meant that a program should be written in such a way that it will normally install itself in /usr/local/bin -- i.e., that I was talking in an imperative sense to someone who might be writing such a thing. (Though language standards are rather interesting this way, in that they're actually mostly used by people who are using the language, but they're written in language that's aimed at the compiler authors.)

So, yeah, I'd consider "will" to be the correct verb there, and "shall" to be an incorrect one.

I would also gripe about the sentence as a whole in documentation, really; "normally" is painfully unspecified for this sort of thing. Instead of leaving the reader to wonder what exactly constitutes an "abnormal" condition, I would write "The program will install itself in /usr/local/bin unless it is directed otherwise by a command-line option, or by...." But that's a separate note.

[zwol.livejournal.com]

I would only write a sentence like 4 if I meant that a program should be written in such a way that it will normally install itself in /usr/local/bin -- i.e., that I was talking in an imperative sense to someone who might be writing such a thing.

Yes. Exactly. (I'm pretty sure your dialect is the same as mine, though. Where did you grow up?)

I would also gripe about the sentence as a whole in documentation, really

That wasn't a direct quote; the person I'm grumping about is quite precise.

[brooksmoses]

Although normally I'd answer that question with "In the western end of Virginia, with parents from middle North Carolina," an equally relevant answer is probably "In a house full of books." (Also, my dad was a professor, and I spent lots of time around his colleagues; I expect that affects things too.)

shall / will

[(Anonymous)]

Many years ago, the rule used to be as follows: the word shall was used for the present tense with the first persons singular and plural, without any sense of forcing or ordering. Will was used for the present tense for the second and third persons singular and plural.

In the present imperative tense, the shalls and wills were reversed. See Fowler, Modern English Usage.


Conjugation of to will in present tense.

I shall install myself in the chair
you will sit over there.
he/she/it will install itself in /usr/local/bin.
we shall install ourselves in the office.
you will find me in Starbucks.
they will not be with us.

Conjugation of to will in imperative tense.
I will not concede the election.
you shall go directly to jail. You shall not pass go. You shall not collect $200.
The student shall repeat the third grade until his scores improve.
we will never surrender.
you shall capture that hill from the enemy
they shall be very tired of grammar by the time they finish this comment.

Ginny