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[zwol]

In a lot of fantasy, magic is an aristocratic thing. There are special individuals, or special families, that can do it; otherwise not. Often, you also have a decline-and-fall narrative in there, with magic having been easier and/or safer in the past. Sometimes technology is held up against magic as safer, more reliable, anyone can do it; later Discworld comes to mind.

I'm thinking that this is an overused trope and it would be nice to see more reversals. "Magic school" stories are an obvious place to look for it but I can't think of a case where there isn't some degree of specialness required to get in in the first place; in the Harry Potter novels one is either born with the talent or not, for instance. The Rick Cook "Wizard's Bane" series has magic that works in the standard high-fantasy way and then the protagonist (who is from Earth) comes in and applies Science, turning it into a technology; later novels deal with the consequences of just about everyone being able to do magic. Unfortunately, apart from this clever concept, they don't have a lot to recommend them. Also, if you just treat magic as a technology, that loses a lot of what makes it interesting.

Comments

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

In a lot of fantasy, magic is an aristocratic thing. There are special individuals, or special families, that can do it; otherwise not.

The thing is, I don't think those two statements have to go together in the slightest, and there's way too much unquestioned assumption that they do. Or to put it another way, I do not think that "ability to do magic varies between people" of necessity has to lead to an aristocracy any more than any other range of human variation. For most notions of magic it creates an imbalance of power; but so long as there are small children, the ill, and people becoming less capable through advanced age, some scale of imbalance of power is an inescapable element of the human condition, and I get kind of cross at some things I have seen around suggesting that magic-as-imbalance-of-power is an inherently evil trope, rather than a useful tool for addressing the ethics of inevitable imbalances of power.

Unfortunately, apart from this clever concept, they don't have a lot to recommend them. Also, if you just treat magic as a technology, that loses a lot of what makes it interesting.

I think there are a number of interesting things out there being done with various angles on magic as tech. I like what Steven Brust does in the Vlad books, where if pretty much everyone in a quasi-medieval tech-level setting has access to magic, the most relevant day-to-day use for most people is telling the time on an exact and standard basis. I very much like Walter Jon Williams' Metropolitan and City on Fire, which are set in a totally urbanised Trantor-like world in which geomantic/feng shui-type magic is essentially a utility; the first is a well-written take on a fairly standard SFnal story of a social visionary and a revolution, the second a really impressive take on the more difficult issue of what do you do next after the revolution. I would also commend to your attention Michael Scott Rohan's first Winter of the World trilogy (The Anvil of the Ice, The Forge in the Forest, the Hammer of the Sun - there are other books in that setting but none that had near the same appeal to me) which do some very nice things from sort of the opposite direction; it is a fantasy setting with active deities and magic, and also some technology coming in under the guise of magic in very clever ways.

The thing that does seem to be missing from magic-as-science is magic that actually feels like cutting edge scientific research, though, and this one I have given up on to the point that I am doing it myself.

[zwol.livejournal.com]

...to put it another way, I do not think that "ability to do magic varies between people" of necessity has to lead to an aristocracy any more than any other range of human variation.

Sure. However, (see below re your various book recommendations) I see stories where magic is treated as technology, and I see stories where magic is treated as aristocratizing, and I object to the excluded middle.

I get kind of cross at some things I have seen around suggesting that magic-as-imbalance-of-power is an inherently evil trope. rather than a useful tool for addressing the ethics of inevitable imbalances of power.

I don't think this is mutually exclusive with what I'm looking for. Real-life democratizing forces don't wipe away all imbalances of power, after all.

In general, it occurs to me that speculative fiction shies away from republics, which seems a shame to me.

I think there are a number of interesting things out there being done with various angles on magic as tech.

I confess, I've read almost all of your suggestions, I just didn't think of them when I was writing the original post. I love the Walter Jon Williams books; they're good story and they have a thoroughly modern view of politics. The Brust books are a lot of fun, and a good example of day-to-day magic, but I don't think either Vlad's or Khaavren's point of view is representative of the typical citizen in any of the three major categories (Easterner, Teckla or other House) so I have to wonder whether it's really like that in general. And, um, I bounced off the Michael Scott Rohan; stories supposedly set in the last glacial period but with late-medieval tech break my suspension of disbelief, and also the moral schema seemed too black and white for me to go along with.

But there's a nuance here I want to come back to: magic treated as technology can be a great basis for an interesting story, but not so much for interesting magic. That's what I was trying to say in the original.

I'm looking for stories in which magic is not being treated as technology but at the same time is a democratizing force, in the sense of the old quip that Sam Colt made men equal.

[elsmi.livejournal.com]

I feel like there are multiple books out there that have the basic setup with an oppressive (government/evil overlord/whatever) and the poor oppressed folks who must fight back have to seek out and acquire magic as a tool? Both of Naomi Kritzer's series comes to mind, for instance, umm... Guy Gavriel Kay's Tigana sort of has that... Of course, that's about magic as part of a transition in society, maybe you mean societies in a steady state where magic is generally available? Does urban fantasy like Sunshine count? Stealing the Elf-King's Roses? (I guess that kind of fits both categories.)

Also not sure if it fits, but Barbara Hambley has a fascinating duology (so far?) including Sisters of the Raven, Circle of the Moon whose premise is that for reasons unknown, male magic suddenly stops working and female magic suddenly starts working, with cascading effects on social systems...